Discussion about this post

User's avatar
Peter Ross's avatar

The whole debate is as ridiculous as it is academic, a lot of fancy talk about string theory that is entirely beside the point.

The point of materialism is that matter exists independently of the mind. The real world can be made out of mathematics, that would only change what matter is.

Okay, “metaphysical materialism” would be incoherent, whatever that is, but materialism is not a theory of metaphysics. It’s also not just a theory of history. It’s a method of approaching the study of the world, particularly the social world, an understanding that our models are only at best a one sided representation of a cross section of the world. Whether the ultimate laws of nature are perfectly represented with a few equations is irrelevant. When it comes to modeling anything complex, like the human world, an abstract model is never enough. Hence, we can’t base ourselves on the development of abstract categories, but of real life.

De Villarreal thinks it’s very profound to say materialism is ideology. The important point is that ideology is material, meaning it’s something formed in the minds of real people via social processes. Ideas don’t evolve according to their own logic because they only partially capture reality. The positivist method, in imitation of mathematics, starts from a definition (for instance, democracy is a social system with properties x, y, z) and then tries to derive properties on that basis. Materialism, in contrast, doesn’t start from ideas (‘the nation state’ or ‘democracy’ or what have you). Rather, we ask how those categories arise, change, and disappear in historical society.

There is nothing wrong in Engels’ quote. It should be obvious that geometric abstractions would not have been arrived at without spatial reasoning derived from real experience. This fact obviously doesn’t imply that a mathematical object like a cylinder was arrived at by measuring cylinders. That’s a silly misreading of the quote, the main point of which is this: “But, as in every department of thought, at a certain stage of development the laws, which were abstracted from the real world, become divorced from the real world, and are set up against it as something independent, as laws coming from outside, to which the world has to conform.” You can create a model of a market, for instance, starting with some set of definitions, and then develop the theory affording to its own internal logic. Sometimes you get something useful, other times you build a bridge to nowhere. Your model might do a good job of representing a real process, but not capture the conditions under which that process arises or disappears. Markets can be thought of as an algorithm for allocating resources, but in the real world they arise out of the actions of real people, they have a social origin and a history, they are part of a larger process, hence they are much more than an algorithm.

You imply that Engels failed to understand Hegel, but Marx knew better, confining himself to a theory that human history is driven by the development of the productive forces. But this point that you cite from Anti Duhring is made again and again by both Engels and Marx. (See, for instance, The German Ideology) Imagine the arrogance to call Engels a crude thinker just because you know a little bit of math!

- Peter Ross

Expand full comment
3 more comments...

No posts